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Will there ever be a wi-fi mini????

3K views 37 replies 17 participants last post by  aaronwt 
#1 ·
I really want to add a TV to a den that has no ethernet or coax. If they made a wi-fi mini, I'd buy it yesterday. MoCa won't work for me in this situation. Is there any other wi-fi solution to get Live TV to a TV (not a computer?)
 
#6 · (Edited)
I currently use a Actiontec Powerline adapter with my mini. I know TiVO doesn't officially support this, but it has been working great for me. Basically turned my house electrical wiring and outlets into Ethernet jacks. Easy solution. Also, cheaper than ripping the walls up. Not totally sure about this, but I think its more reliable than wireless too as its essentially a hard wired type connection
 
#7 ·
I currently use a Actiontec Powerline adapter with my mini. I know TiVO doesn't officially support this, but it has been working great for me. Basically turned my house electrical wiring and outlets into Ethernet jacks. Easy solution. Also, cheaper than ripping the walls up
I'll throw my 2 cents in for this too.. I have been using a Powerline adapter for one of my Mini's and other than a rare connection glitch, it works fine.
 
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#8 ·
Oh man, I'm trying to figure this out too. My wife wants the TV against a wall that I can't wire coax to. I had previously tried to run a wireless Mini on a 802.11n network and that was a disaster. I then went with MoCa - which has worked great, but won't work with this new plan.

At least this time I've upgraded my wireless AP to AC even though I have no devices that currently use that standard. And the AP will be approximately 15 feet from the TV with no obstacles. Testing from my laptop I have 100% signal strength on 802.11n at 300Mbit/sec for the 5ghz network.

So my question is whether that is enough throughput to stream to a Tivo Mini? I will run my TiVo Roamio headless and hardwired to my router next to the AP with Mini's connected to the two TV's (wifi downstairs, MoCa upstairs). I will probably get that Netgear WNCE2001 mentioned by PSU_Sudzi rather than convert a router to bridge mode.

Like I said, I don't have any AC devices, but it looks like that throughput is 1331Mbits/sec which I'm going to guess is enough even for those big, fat, uncompressed TiVo streams.
 
#9 ·
I will probably get that Netgear WNCE2001 mentioned by PSU_Sudzi rather than convert a router to bridge mode.

Like I said, I don't have any AC devices, but it looks like that throughput is 1331Mbits/sec which I'm going to guess is enough even for those big, fat, uncompressed TiVo streams.
A Mini only needs 20Mbps max. The single port bridge mentioned will work, as will a TiVo wireless N. One thing that will not work is a Roamio's internal wireless.

Smart TV? Will you want it to have internet access too?
 
#15 ·
Only way I see a wifi mini becoming viable is if the next gen TiVo starts transcoding everything rather then just recording the MPEG-2 stream being sent by the operators. Wifi is just not reliable enough to handle a 12-15Mbps MPEG-2 stream without lag or glitches. If they convert all content to H.264 with 1/2 the bitrate then it would be a more viable option. This is why wifi mini boxes are only available from the DSS providers and not cable companies. DSS uses H.264 encoding for all their channels already, so their streams are all in the 4-7Mbps range. Cable is still mostly using MPEG-2 in the 10-15Mbps range, so wifi isn't really a good option. Although this is changing, so we may eventually get to a point where cable is also mostly H.264. Although at that point the CableCARD will likely be dead and TiVo wont be able to offer a retail cable device anyway.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Just for clarification, neither DBS service is encoding using MPEG4 exclusively through out the country. They both do, however, use H.264 encoding for all their HD services. Both Dish and DirecTV still use MPEG2 for their SD content. Only Dish uses MPEG4 exclusively for all HD and SD on its Eastern Arc only, but Dish still uses MPEG2 (recently upgraded to 8PSK) for all SD content on it's Western Arc. MPEG2 is still a BIG fact of life for satellite. DirecTV did announce that they have a goal to tranmit all content in HD only in the coming years while still providng SD outputs on its boxes to support SD displays, but that was before AT&T bought DirecTV. Dish has absolutely no plans--especially after just having completed their costly and time consuming migration to 8PSK--to implement all MPEG4 only on its Western Arc. It is MPEG2 for all its national SD content on the Western Arc with no change in sight.

The DBS wireless clients work robustly and use standard WiFi protocols with no transcoding (Dish using the 5Ghz band exclusively that many home networks do not employ). Dish and DirecTV use their own robust equipment (inlcuding WAP's) that is "professionslly" installed (by corporate installers or contractors) that, in most homes, results in problem free, high quality experince with certainty of good operations before closing the job and subsequent support for any problems encountered with the wireless set-up. Essentially they set up a robust sub-network in the home with its own WAP for its wireless clients that do not depend upon the lousy customer home LAN for performance.

On the other hand, the reason TiVo does not want to allow or support WiFi for the Mini is the same reason TiVo perfers and supports only MoCA for connections to Mini clients: TiVo has no way of knowing how robust and porperly set-up an individuals network is, and WiFi, especially, varies greatly in quality and reliability most often, but not limited, to equipment (routers and AP's and bridges) and placement.

Most consumers may have set up inferior networks with poor performing WiFi with all sorts of factors causing this such as OLD routers that can't handle demanding loads, routers--even some of the newer ones--that just plain provide LOUSY WiFi performance, congestion of frequencies, placement of routers, structure or walls or distances inside a domicile, inferior routers with insufficient memory or inferior routers that will overheat and not function properly if asked to handle the traffic of a few Mini's and a PC watching YouTube in HD, and on and on.

The only way for TiVo to virtually guarntee the most positive, the best experience for its live streaming of content from DVR to client with virtually no hiccups is for TiVo to just STAY AWAY from WiFi altogether because most people's WiFi network is horrible for the demands of somthing like a Mini or even a DBS client, and TiVo has no technicians to install and set-up wireless clients to be certain they operate as they should. Even a wired network that is either poorly set-up or using older routers or a router not properly configured, especially older routers that require tweaking for QOS with not-intuitive old interfaces that 98% of people with home networks don't even know exists, let alone how to ACCESS those settings, can perform so poorly as to seriously degrade the PQ and reliability of what is being sent to the Mini. WiFi may have worked well enough (although we all have read the probelms people had back then too) in the earlier years of S2 and S3 TiVo's MRV because it was a TRANSFER of data, not a live stream that does not ask for the retransmission of any lost packets. All the data has to be sent robustly or it falls apart into a horrible experience.

However, even DBS uses MoCA for its wired clients. The DBS providers could have easily just used a subscriber's existing home LAN for its DVR's and clients. But, some of those networks are a SORRY example. So Dish and DirecTV install their own wired network using MoCA to completly by-pass the subscribers lousy LAN that can often be exclusively WiFi, and poorly perfroming WiFi. However, the main DVR is the only device connected to the subscribers home LAN in order to have access to the internet to provide for downloads of entertainment content of TV shows and movies (their kind of Video On Demand) or access to Netflix from any DVR or client in the case of Dish or for apps to function such as weather and sports scores, as well as sending health reports to the DBS provider, along with viewing data just as TiVo does.

It's all about the quality of a home network, or AVOIDING the home network, not about encoding standards or even satellite modulation schemes. WiFi, modern WiFi with robust routers in a properly set up home network can handle MPEG2 streaming, but most people don't have proper, robust home networks, so DBS installs the robust sub network for them.
 
#17 ·
I have two Minis on Powerline AV500 adapters. They can both stream on a lower bitrate channel, like MSNBC, which my local cable company sends at around 9mbps, but I tried both TVs doing ESPN/2, which are sent at around 19mbps, and sometimes it works for a while, but often one or both of them bombs out. It works fine for my needs, but if I were setting TiVo Minis up today in a setup, and I didn't already have AV500 adapters, I'd go G.hn, and I'd wager that they could handle several Minis at the same time.
 
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#19 ·
Yes, satellite uses MPEG-2 for SD, but the bitrates are still lower than MPEG-4 HD, and it's the bitrate that matters here, not what resolution or format the content is in. Cable HD is tougher to offer through a Wi-Fi box, although Comcast is going to offer Wi-Fi boxes soon, and their local content is still in MPEG-2, with some bitrates up in the 17mbps range in certain markets, so it will be interesting to see how that works. U-Verse/Vantage TV uses Wi-Fi, but it is a 100% MPEG-4 system, so the bitrates are all <6mbps.

Otherwise, yes, you are spot on in terms of why TiVo won't/can't to Wi-Fi Minis. The support would be a nightmare. And that's why many users on this forum have them running over Wi-Fi bridges and they are rock solid. Those folks know what they are doing, unlike the average idiot who has their wireless setup totally wrong.

DBS providers use MoCA because the coax is already there, unlike Ethernet, which in probably 95% of installations is MIA, although DirecTV was very stingy about enabling Ethernet MRV on their earlier DVRs that didn't require SWiM/DECA, and some folks on the satellite forums were mad, as they didn't want to replace their 6x8 multiswitch setups just to get MRV, so they wanted everything running on Ethernet. Other than that situation though, having 3 cables to each DVR was rather clunky compared to one cable that carries SWiM/DECA. TiVo has to be connected to the user's LAN at some point for guide data, satellite boxes have to function without a network connection, since some users, especially rural, don't have a home network to connect to.
 
#20 ·
Otherwise, yes, you are spot on in terms of why TiVo won't/can't to Wi-Fi Minis. The support would be a nightmare. And that's why many users on this forum have them running over Wi-Fi bridges and they are rock solid. Those folks know what they are doing, unlike the average idiot who has their wireless setup totally wrong.
As one of those admitted idiots (I'm fine with computers, but I fight my brain's going into near paralysis when dealing with networking and routers--not helped by the fact that I can't even find a user manual for my telecom-issued modem/router), I understand the issues that TiVo has with the current state of wireless. I just wish that TiVo had a way to be more flexible for those of us with less-connected homes where coaxial cabling everywhere we can have a TV and would like a TiVo box just isn't possible (such as, one's kitchen or an "auxiliary" room being used as a home office).

Such as, I wonder, couldn't TiVo have a "minimum standard'' for wireless and Powerline networking, using the latest and best equipment and standards? And possibly even offer a TiVo-branded router and Powerline adapter (à la the TiVo bridge, a re-branded Actiontec MoCA adapter) or team with manufacturers to offer "TiVo-certified" equipment (à la the Western Digital My Book AV DVR Expander)? I can't help but think that this would lead to a (great?) increase in Mini sales and enhance TiVo's reputation for a home networking entertainment solution.

I realize that there still would be issues (as basic as the construction of one's home and electrical wiring), and perhaps the specs aren't yet there. But I still can dream. ;) Perhaps as the specs continue advancing, it may be more do-able. Having said that, considering Rovi's announced desired business path, it may fall more to the manufacturers.
 
#28 ·
If I owned my house, I'd get out my drill and run CAT cable, but given that I'm renting as of right now, Powerline works pretty well for me to add TVs where there is no coax.
 
#31 ·
I recall reading about a TiVo app for Roku. Was that ever a thing. That would serve the wireless functionality, yes?

Sorry that I'm not as up to date on that stuff as others.

Was that vaporware?
I think there's an Amazon Fire TiVo app, so it's possible they've ported it to Roku. I'm not sure how much functionality these carry over from a stand-alone TiVo. They're also beta versions if I'm not mistaken.

The problem there is you're using the Roku or Fire remotes which are minimal to a fault. The TiVo remote is one of the brand's biggest selling points since it's the best DVR remote I've ever used. All the other remotes are too complex or lack RF.
 
#32 ·
The app runs through the TiVo Stream transcoded to MPEG-4, so it's not the full TiVo experience like on a Mini, where you're taking the MPEG-2 and streaming it directly. Those streaming boxes generally can't decode MPEG-2 directly, so in order to do OTA, they need a TiVo Stream, or a totally different system like the Tablo to transcode to MPEG-4 for them.
 
#33 ·
Yeah, so that Powerline network.... the popcorn maker brings it to it's knees. Probably the blower in it creating a ton of electrical noise, but the Mini start acting really bizarrely when I turned the popcorn maker on. It would pause and un-pause the picture every second or so, in the mean time getting farther and father behind live until I FF'ed. It was really weird. It started working fine again when I was done making popcorn.
 
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#34 ·
I should definitely look into a Powerline. Has to be cheaper than getting someone to run another Cat6 line. I have all Mac stuff, Apple Time Capsule, Ethernet connected AppleTV's, and my Bolt is connected to ethernet too. Is there a specific model that would "play nice" with my Apple router? I don't think any of the Airport Expresses were for ethernet (although I'm not sure.)
 
#35 ·
Ethernet is Ethernet. It doesn't matter if it's Apple, Netgear, Linksys, Cisco or whatever. CAT-6 is the best if you can run a line yourself, and probably cheaper. If not, Powerline or G.hn might be worth a shot if you can't do what you're looking to do with MoCA or wireless, or need to expand the reach of your backbone or something.
 
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#36 ·
Do you get good wifi signal in the room...if so just buy a wifi access point and call it a day. It will work well as long as your network speed is 25 MBPS or greater. If not your best bet is to bite the bullet and pay someone to run a ethernet or coax cable. There are too many sources for intereference in power lines, and the speed on these power line kits frequently drops below 20MBPS, especially if you are trying to use the adapters on different circuits, at which point the mini probably won't work.
 
#38 ·
I never liked powerline because you could not use it connected to a UPS. So if the power goes out, so does your network over the powerline adapters.

I had considered using it at my GFs house many years ago. Until I realized the UPS issue. So I just set her up with wireless at the time.
 
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