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TiVo Mini Review Roundup

56K views 318 replies 43 participants last post by  lessd 
#1 ·
#253 ·
PCMag's Joel Santiago posted his review of the TiVo Mini. I attempted to correct the record related to WiFi but his response clearly indicates that jes thinking of this from the perspective of a Roku or ATV. Anyway, I thought I would link the review here to see if anyone else might want to chime in.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2417166,00.asp
Consumers don't care or understand why Wi-Fi is a poor choice for accurate, reliable streaming of video. They just perceive Wi-Fi as being "better" because there are "fewer cords".

In the case of the Mini it is particularly comical because almost every location in the home that has a TV already has a coax connection that can be used to deploy the Mini.
 
#255 ·
Consumers don't care or understand why Wi-Fi is a poor choice for accurate, reliable streaming of video. They just perceive Wi-Fi as being "better" because there are "fewer cords".

In the case of the Mini it is particularly comical because almost every location in the home that has a TV already has a coax connection that can be used to deploy the Mini.
Absolutely not true!!!!!

One of the primary places I'd consider a mini is in my shop/garage! AT various times, I spend a good deal of time there, and am considering the mini for that location. Now, I have CAT5E there, but many people would not, and I certainly do not have RG6 there.

I actually thought the review was pretty accurate. IF you're a Tivo customer, and in particular a heavy Tivo advocate, the mini (outside of the serious defect of the tuner dedication) is really nice. However, I think it's also safe to say that it is not a game changer. Sales seem to prove out this assumption. For current Tivo subscribers who have, or will own, a 4 tuner, the mini is pretty nice. I'm pretty happy with its performance, and for my perspective I'm just unhappy with the lack of dynamic tuner allocation - and with the service fee, whether it be the monthly sub or the $150 lifetime. I think Tivo is simply out in left field with a catchers mitt with that decision.
 
#256 ·
Judging by all the posts about MoCA here, people understand it even less than why WiFi is a bad choice. But when mpeg4 transcoding shows up in the new boxes (hopefully), WiFi might be a good idea again. Then questions will be asked about why the Mini doesn't have it.
With that said, transcoding has its own set of issues associated with performance degradation and loss of video quality so I hope the Mini continues to operate with the native stream. I think newer wireless technologies like ac might be the step needed to resolve this issue and confusion once and for all.
 
#257 ·
Judging by all the posts about MoCA here, people understand it even less than why WiFi is a bad choice. But when mpeg4 transcoding shows up in the new boxes (hopefully), WiFi might be a good idea again. Then questions will be asked about why the Mini doesn't have it.
You're right. And if it's being compared to Roku, etc, then clearly MPEG2 also isn't important. Just because the mini "can" doesn't mean that consumers "want".
 
#258 ·
Absolutely not true!!!!!

One of the primary places I'd consider a mini is in my shop/garage! AT various times, I spend a good deal of time there, and am considering the mini for that location. Now, I have CAT5E there, but many people would not, and I certainly do not have RG6 there.

I actually thought the review was pretty accurate. IF you're a Tivo customer, and in particular a heavy Tivo advocate, the mini (outside of the serious defect of the tuner dedication) is really nice. However, I think it's also safe to say that it is not a game changer. Sales seem to prove out this assumption. For current Tivo subscribers who have, or will own, a 4 tuner, the mini is pretty nice. I'm pretty happy with its performance, and for my perspective I'm just unhappy with the lack of dynamic tuner allocation - and with the service fee, whether it be the monthly sub or the $150 lifetime. I think Tivo is simply out in left field with a catchers mitt with that decision.
You sure like absolutes! :rolleyes:

Can you clarify your source of the statement that sales estimates seem to prove out that assumption?
 
#259 ·
You sure like absolutes! :rolleyes:

Can you clarify your source of the statement that sales estimates seem to prove out that assumption?
Nope - I don't like absolutes. That's why I've constantly pushed back on the financial models that "prove" TiVo is always the lesser expensive.

In any case, I have no metric driven source for sales estimates other than what I have gotten as answers when talking to Tivo themselves, Weakknees, and Amazon when I was starting to think about ordering them - as well as watching volume here. It is a subjective opinion, which is why I used the term "seem to".

The PCMag review was pragmatic, and viewed not from the lens of a Tivo fanatic, but from the general market. It pointed to pros and cons, as seen through a product agnostic perspective. I've read it several times and while the "tone" may be argued, the content seems pretty darned accurate and unbiased.
 
#260 ·
Nope - I don't like absolutes. That's why I've constantly pushed back on the financial models that "prove" TiVo is always the lesser expensive.

In any case, I have no metric driven source for sales estimates other than what I have gotten as answers when talking to Tivo themselves, Weakknees, and Amazon when I was starting to think about ordering them - as well as watching volume here. It is a subjective opinion, which is why I used the term "seem to".

The PCMag review was pragmatic, and viewed not from the lens of a Tivo fanatic, but from the general market. It pointed to pros and cons, as seen through a product agnostic perspective. I've read it several times and while the "tone" may be argued, the content seems pretty darned accurate and unbiased.
Amazon isn't actually selling the Mini (3rd parties only) so that could impact sales at this point. It will be interesting to see if they pick it up. Amazon still doesn't sell the XL4. TiVo clearly soft-launched the product at this point. I expect we could see a bigger marketing push after tivo addresses some of the needed improvements and works through some of the early-adopter installation troubles.
 
#261 ·
The PCMag review was pragmatic, and viewed not from the lens of a Tivo fanatic, but from the general market. It pointed to pros and cons, as seen through a product agnostic perspective. I've read it several times and while the "tone" may be argued, the content seems pretty darned accurate and unbiased.
Well kind of. The review starts out correctly identifying that the Mini is not a stand alone product and that it is equivalent to a Dish Network Joey.

After that I consider the review is somewhat of a failure. They just stated it wasn't a stand alone product and then go on to review it like it is a stand alone product - which to me means the reviewer doesn't know what he is reviewing.

The Mini is part of a whole home digital cable DVR system. For the review to be useful to someone looking into a whole home DVR system the review needs to be reviewing the enter whole home system, not just one part of it that doesn't even function without the rest of the system.

I got the impression that they don't actually care about whole home DVR systems at all as they decided without actually reviewing the "whole system" that the Mini would do nothing to bring new subscribers to TiVo.

Frankly if someone had done a similar writeup about the Dish Network Joey and not reviewed it with the whole home Hopper DVR system everyone would have thought the review was a joke.
 
#263 ·
I felt differently. I thought it looked from the 'non-TiVo" perspective at general feature/function. It mentions the dedication of a tuner, the small amount of interaction, the fact that you can only see "that tuner" and not other XL4/P4 tuners, content across the devices, etc.
 
#264 ·
Well said and exactly on point!
+1. :up:

I just went back and re-read all the reviews that are linked to the gdgt.com review.

Josh Goldman at Cnet provides the most balanced review which he has updated significantly since it was originally published. Ben (@bjdraw) wrote a good review as well. Dave's review is solid as well. Most/all of the remaining reviews reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of the product and incorrectly compare the Mini to a Roku or ATV.

JMHO...
 
#265 ·
I felt differently. I thought it looked from the 'non-TiVo" perspective at general feature/function. It mentions the dedication of a tuner, the small amount of interaction, the fact that you can only see "that tuner" and not other XL4/P4 tuners, content across the devices, etc.
I am not looking at it form a TiVo point of view I am looking at it from what I think someone should be reviewing when they review a whole home DVR system point of view.

The reviewer just wanted to talk to much about things that are just not part of whole home DVR system at this time. It was clear he wants a wireless system and one that centers around IP/Internet Streaming services. Nothing wrong with that but how does that help anyone understand what is actually available and what the differences are in the various whole home DVR systems currently being offered?

In my opinion a good review provides details about the product being reviewed but also provides bench mark references comparing it to other competing products. This review did not do that because they really didn't want to talk about whole home DVR systems but appeared to be dreaming about some mystical product that doesn't exist.
 
#266 ·
Ben (@bjdraw) wrote a good review as well. I don't think his conclusion accurately reflects the Mini's value proposition to an existing or new TiVo user. I think the discussions Ben has had on his podcast reflect more of the value-prop of the Mini.
I'm really not sure what you are talking about here. I said there were a few missing pieces but TiVo owners wouldn't mind waiting for them. I'm not sure what would be more accurate.
 
#267 ·
I'm really not sure what you are talking about here. I said there were a few missing pieces but TiVo owners wouldn't mind waiting for them. I'm not sure what would be more accurate.
FWIW, I actually thought your review was also pretty accurate - though I do think it reflects a far more "Tivo Centric" view. I still think that the PCMag review is also accurate, as it is viewing it from a "general market" perspective.

I just don't think people adequately understand the difference.
 
#268 ·
I am not looking at it form a TiVo point of view I am looking at it from what I think someone should be reviewing when they review a whole home DVR system point of view.
I think that's the point here. We don't agree on what constitutes a "whole home" point of view. Yours is Tivo centric. PCMag is not. You're not wrong. Neither are they. Different viewpoints.

And that IS the point. 10 years ago, we wouldn't even be talking about Amazon streaming downloads, Roku, Hulu+. Do you really think those changes will not continue?
 
#269 ·
I'm really not sure what you are talking about here. I said there were a few missing pieces but TiVo owners wouldn't mind waiting for them. I'm not sure what would be more accurate.
Actually I re-read your statement,

Exactly how the whole-home functionality will look after a few updates will be something to watch out for, but as it stands now, the Mini falls short of the competition in regards to consistency. The Ceton Echo, Dish Joey and DirecTV RVU client all provide a more seamless whole-home DVR experience than the Mini. But none of them work with your TiVo, and for those who believe that there is no substitute, you can finally enjoy a genuine whole-home DVR experience while spending less than the price of another DVR.
I basically interpreted that you believe the Mini is inferior to Ceton's Echo, Dish's Joey, and DTV's RVU client. I can't really compare since I haven't used the other three and you have. I can say the Mini is an improvement over the majority of cable operator provided whole-home experiences.

Sorry for the confusion. I'm editing the above post for accuracy.
 
#270 ·
I think that's the point here. We don't agree on what constitutes a "whole home" point of view. Yours is Tivo centric. PCMag is not. You're not wrong. Neither are they. Different viewpoints.
A review either actually reviews the product being offered or they don't. This review was as much or more about wanting a different product as reviewing the one being offered.

And that IS the point. 10 years ago, we wouldn't even be talking about Amazon streaming downloads, Roku, Hulu+. Do you really think those changes will not continue?
Sorry but Rokus have nothing to do with digital cable whole home DVR systems, just like a blu-ray players has nothing to do with a digital cable whole home DVR system, neither are DVRs or are designed to provide digital cable throughout ones home.

Now if someone wants to write a review about different sources of video and includes a section on the hardware needed for each video source that is fine the hardware might even be a major factor in deciding which video source someone is going to use but that is not what this review was doing.

I get that many people want TiVo to build something they are not building that is fine so do I. But the reality is they are building DVRs with some addition features and the Mini is part of TiVos whole home digital cable DVR system not something else. Either someone wants a digital cable whole home DVR system or they do not, if they do they can evaluate if what TiVo is offering is the best for them or not.
 
#271 ·
We will have to agree to disagree. And the point is you have an opinion as to what the review (and apparently the product) should be. Others don't agree, including the person who reviewed it. The fact that you have a different opinion and viewpoint in no way diminishes the value of that review. You just don't like it. Part of that review just might have been a reflection that the reviewer thinks Tivo is missing the mark on where the industry and the market is going...... Hmmmmmm......
 
#272 ·
I can say the Mini is an improvement over the majority of cable operator provided whole-home experiences.
In your opinion. In one respect it is inferior. That is, the requirement to dedicate a (now non-recording) tuner from the DVR. We hope that will be corrected. If it is, then I would agree that the Mini is IMHO better. Not until then. And only (again) if one is willing to overlook the investment necessary to use the Mini, which is not required for the alternative.
 
#273 ·
In your opinion. In one respect it is inferior. That is, the requirement to dedicate a (now non-recording) tuner from the DVR. We hope that will be corrected. If it is, then I would agree that the Mini is IMHO better. Not until then. And only (again) if one is willing to overlook the investment necessary to use the Mini, which is not required for the alternative.
Does your cable provider offer a 4 tuner whole home DVR?

A TWC whole home DVR (only 2 tuners) and 2 STBs offers the same amount of tuners as a Premiere 4 and 2 Minis regardless how you setup tuner sharing. As far as I can remember everyone who has said what their cable provider provides has indicate they only have dual tuner whole home DVRs.

Regarding paying up front or monthly that is a personal preference. However with credit options and monthly or lifetime service options Tivo purchasers have choices, cable equipment renters do not.
 
#274 ·
Does your cable provider offer a 4 tuner whole home DVR?

A TWC whole home DVR (only 2 tuners) and 2 STBs offers the same amount of tuners as a Premiere 4 and 2 Minis regardless how you setup tuner sharing. As far as I can remember everyone who has said what their cable provider provides has indicate they only have dual tuner whole home DVRs.

Regarding paying up front or monthly that is a personal preference. However with credit options and monthly or lifetime service options Tivo purchasers have choices, cable equipment renters do not.
Supposedly Q1 of this year (which is just about ending) Cox was going to launch a 6-tuner, 2TB whole home DVR solution with capability for individual user profiles and viewing on mobile devices:
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2013-01/new-coxcisco-guide-shows-promise-reveals-kinks/#
Of course it's still vaporware as I haven't seen any other info on it but since the Satellite companies and U-verse already offer 4+ tuner solutions they have to try and keep pace.
 
#275 ·
Does your cable provider offer a 4 tuner whole home DVR?

A TWC whole home DVR (only 2 tuners) and 2 STBs offers the same amount of tuners as a Premiere 4 and 2 Minis regardless how you setup tuner sharing. As far as I can remember everyone who has said what their cable provider provides has indicate they only have dual tuner whole home DVRs.

Regarding paying up front or monthly that is a personal preference. However with credit options and monthly or lifetime service options Tivo purchasers have choices, cable equipment renters do not.
No, VZ does not at this time. You're quoting TWC and your contract, and I am aware of VZ and my contract as well as Comcast. As stated before, since at least a good deal of VZ customers have a first DVR free for life, then a second DVR can add 2 more tuners easily. Then, the STB's provide tuners in addition to access to content stored elsewhere.

Regarding payment, that IS a personal preference, however you are far too cavalier with that attitude. Many people have limited means or don't want to tie up credit cards with such payments. Further, when doing that you have the worst of both worlds. You are committed to Tivo, but still making monthly payments, at the same time as remaining responsible for repairs. It is NOT the same as a month to month, no obligation, capability to add, subtract, or simply eliminate that equipment at any time.

From a monthly service option, it is very very hard to find a measurement that allows Tivo to not be more expensive if you stay that way. Plus, you're STILL locked into a minimum of a one year obligation. So no matter what, with Tivo you are locked in. With MSO you are not. Period.

I find it interesting that so many are unwilling to recognize that not everyone is as fortunate as they are, or that not everyone values the Tivo relationship that much. Tivo - and MSO DVRs - consume disposable income. Many - if not MOST - people are not willing to have a long term commitment of such a size in this matter. For that, I assume I don't need to provide backup data, as the pure gross sales of Tivo compared to the combined DVR lease numbers of the MSOs, would kind of point in that direction, no?
 
#276 ·
Verizon currently does not offer a 4 tuner DVR, and nothing resembling the TIVO MINI. They do offer a whole home DVR, but you need a full sized HD or DVR box to use that application.

With the implementation of their "Media Server", Verizon will be offering six available tuners, and small satellite boxes. This will happen this year, hopefully.
 
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